Category: The Rave Board
Much of this has been touched on throughout other topics, consider this a rave but I'd like to think it's a bit educational for some perhaps young idealists who have the luxury of looking back ... and making a reality out of something that wasn't.
I remember being so excited when I finally could get access to the paper and everything else online like all my peers, not because it was online, but because now for the first time ever I could get data as is, real and in real time. No waiting for the proverbial filter / time lag of someone / some institution deeming it worthy to transcribe. Never mind that browsers were so hard to use then with readers that many of you all would have called them inaccessible.
For Tiff and others too young to know this, you don't have any idea what it's like to move from one world like that into a much more even playing field like we have now. No, you can pay most things online you needn't roll a big check with raised lines into a typewriter to line it up, write out the check, send it in to the company only to find the ribbon went out and they wondered what the hell with the blank check.
I didn't know I would ever feel the same way again about a new development, and I realize for many of you this isn't new, but recently having gotten a smartphone with a reader in it, I can now access all its functions. But that's not it: Now, with this Cha cha service, not designed specifically for the blind, if my wife asks me to cook the frozen calzone and both of us forget about me writing down the instructions for it, I can cha cha it, provided I know whose it is. Google Goggles not ready for prime time yet, and not ready at all for us yet but coming, will allow you to snap a picture of a menu with your phone, send it to the server, have it translated (presumably English to English would be fine, Google Translate already does that), so you get OCR. Not done up for the blind, just done.
Here's my deal here: First, we got moved from the dark ages, much like what sighted people experienced after 1407 with the advent of the printing press. That was going online, for us. Because before we could go online, we got the equivalent of pre-printing-press distribution: whatever the great white masters / mistresses / institutions deemed worthy to transcribe. Great Whites marginalized, we are now looking at and collaborating with, peers / have been for fifteen years. However, we still miss the immediate. What I mean by this is you need to know what a dial says, you need to know some instructions, the sort of thing for which instant visual feedback is key. We're nearly there, guys.
So you can cha cha for instructions on something. What happens if Solona or some similar service does a Rave-like service by MMS? That would be take a picture with your phone, message it to the service and the human on the other end could tell you what it is. Not a full on reader, just identification, maybe you could ask one or two question, and the like. You know where I saw this? A guy in a store gettin' stuff for his wife, called her, tried to describe, see which one she wanted. Then he squeezed off a picture and messaged it to her, said "OK honey, is that the one?" The guy wasn't blind but we could do that. And before you think "Wow I'm blind, man, how am I gonna get a picture?" Even a 2-megapixel camera with autofocus will be enough if you aim with the same precision you did with a squirt gun as a kid.
Anyway all this to say yes, we did it the old way, yes we did all those things and I guess that's what some on here call the daily life skills ... but you have to admit it was more often than not really inefficient. You would never design a system like that, my analogy of a rubber drive shaft. Where we're going is our ability not only to collaborate and compete with peers in an online environment but even the simple stuff that can hang us up, and for which we can't really talk about except on sites like this one, we will be able to nail it badass. Imagine you'll even be able to take a picture of a street sign, have it OCR'ed and get the answer. Your cable modem on the blink? Any human on the other end can tell you, "I see 1 flashing green light, one red one that's on steady, and what looks like a light but it's off, and it says Signal". As a computer guy I'd know what to do with that, it's just that now I don't have to guess / take an extra five minutes to find the common denominator. I'm sure there's tons of other scenarios we don't even know of. Seriously, for all some complain about the accessibility or lack thereof of certain things, modern infrastructures are increasingly providing us with more and more efficiency, specifically for us, whether intentionally or otherwise.
I'm surprised to not see more of this perspective among what they call the blind community. I mean we are rare in the population at large, but surely more than just me has had this experience. I realize many on here aren't old enough to appreciate it, and maybe you all will never have that feeling. That's in and of itself a huge step: a generation that never knew what it was like before for us.
I know scanning software and reading machines have been around for quite a long time. Even before the explosion of the net, scanning software was getting cheaper. Granted, it wasn't as cheap as today, and doing this certainly doesn't give you the wealth of information available on the net, but it was possible to read a newspaper with one of those. The average sighted person would've had only access to that, since the net was reserved for a small number of people who were into computers. That said, I'm 26 and only got my first scanner about eight years ago, when I entered college. Up until then, I was satisfied with books on tape. Hell, I still like them on occasion. But now, I could pick up a print book and actually read it! I thought it was the most amazing thing ever! Mom's 60 and totally sighted. She's just starting to use the computer. But of all the things she's seen, the fax machine still totally amazes her. Now that would absolutely incredible, to use a fax machine in braille! I'd love that! The goggles sound cool and would probably be way less expensive than the KNFB reader, but, for now, we have that at least, and it souns like a similar concept. That's a very nteresting idea about the pictures,. I'd like to see that happen. I think the thing that will do it for me next is a gps that's fully accessible. I'm excited about the Kapten because it seems to be an inexpensive one that's stand-alone and ready to use. But I'm totally modern in one way and truly love it. I've never written a cheque. All my transactions are either done online or at a store with my debit or credit card. I very rarely use cash either because it's still inaccessible. That said, I do have a machine that cuts cheques. You simple put the paper in, slide the switches to the numbers desired and then pull down on the lever. Of course, this doesn't help in writing your name or that of the person to whom you're sending the money, but it's something I guess.
What is cool about a fax machine?
I tested the bar code scanner recently and really liked it. I think it ma be a more efficient way than taking photos of things for the blind and if the RFID tags take off that will be another revolution for us. It would be cheap and easy to have a device that reads to us what is in the shelf next to us, washing machines could be smrt enough to set themselves based on the laundry, microwave could use the tag to figure out the cooking etc.
Also I am hoping finger prints can somehow replace the old pen signature. Writing something is not a big deal, once you know how to write your name, but the bloody receipts/having to sign everything is still annoying, having to print things out, sign them and mail them in or fax them is a pain and being able to digitally sign a form with your fingerprint without ever having to print it would be exciting, or if not with finger print, then with some form of digital I.D. In Iceland they are already experimenting with it by adding a magnetic I.D. to a debit card and it can be used to I.D. forms etc online for banking transactions.
These types of technologies could extend to accessible voting, which is nother thing I really want. Voting remains not very accessible and it is ol fashioned where it does not hve to be.
Also I really hope Google will do their homework and provide access to its O.S., both on its tablets, phones and other devices. So far their record is less than impressive when it comes to accessibility and I really hope it´ll change.
Apple has ruled the hardware device market for a while but I really think it is Google´s turn now, and I want them to do as good a job as Apple has done, regardless of what the future will look like for built in accessibility.
Well, I see no reason why regular washers and microwaves with dials are a bad thing. But I suppose your idea would be good for those who have trouble with their hands or other handicaps. But I completely agree on the fingerprint idea. As it is, I have a stamp that I use to sign things so I either use that or have a friend ofr family member sign for me. They sign my name and then put their initions with a circle around them to indicate that they were the physical signer and not me. I like Google's search engine and Gmail, though I hate how they lock you into youtube, so that if you sign up with your GMail account (and I had no choice since the other way was to use an inaccessible capcha) you can't change your e-mail account associated with your youtube account unless you close the latter, thereby losing all your friends, subscribers and comments and then tell it to use another e-mail account.
A couple points:
Eleni, the scanners of the period you're talking about could not read a newspaper, I tried at the University with their premium unit. They couldn't even read a bank statement. It was hit or miss which is fine for those who can, inconvenient for those in school (though far better than nothing), but out of the question for anyone at the work place where the accuracy of the document is key. As to the books on tape, you might have been happy with it but that was six months to a year after the publication date of a book. For you that's probably not important, but for anyone working or in school, or even trying to be educated on an issue that's contemporary getting access to said material at or near the time frame of the rest of the developed, and much of the underdeveloped world, is key.
So I should have mentioned Bookshare, a wonderful innovation.
Anyway to the post about RFIDs: That will definitely work like bar codes do, albeit from a greater distance, but they hold information like a bar code does (more of it certainly), but they don't tell you the state of the item. Meaning they don't change as the item does.
As to legacy infrastructures, OCR will be a better option because it's instant on if you will. With RFID, as great as it is, you have to implant every single object in order for it to work.
As are all things technological, the power will be in the convergence of multiple solutions, not the exclusivity of a monolith so often played out in science fiction.
just wanted to stick my two cents in here for whatever it's worth: I may be young, but I definitely appreciate where we've come from and look forward to where we're going. I remember in elementary school when they taught us how to use word perfect...ahhh, the memories.
A few points:
RF IDs excite me because I think the tag can stay on e.g. clothing and could contain information e.g. about its color, thus removing the need for a color identifier and one could imagine intelligent appliances that could scan the rf ids of e.g. clothes or food and associate it with washing or cooking instructions to some degree.
Of course this requires the appliances to be online, the I.D. to work and not be deactived or to be ruined in e.g. multiple washes, and a database, an enormous one, of products and associated information. But I think the idea is still not so far fetched, the question is if there will be sufficient market for it. The ocr developments are, of course, great too. We always have to use a combination of solutions and I think the future will see more of that than the past e.g. with energy production and distribution.
I know the privacy concerns of the RFIDs, for instance, ar valid, although I feel people tend to be awfully paranoid about some things.
Cudos to Bookshare definitely, learnt most of my programming through it, same with mailing lists and information sharing in general.
Audible is a very cool example of solutions for the blind reaching a larger market and thus insuring much better prices and greater selection (I know some people find Audible expensive, but I do not, I think the boks there are sometimes even cheaper than a hard copy).
OCR moving to digital cameras is another huge leap and I need to Google the Google Goggles .. how is that for a sentence.
Just so we're on the same page, do we mean early 90's or before that? I know the ones I was reading about at abledata.com said they could read newspapers, different fonts and sizes of print etc and several software and hardware options were discussed in their respective entries. You're right about the books not being an issue for me. I started using internet-capable computers in 1996 and was only 13 then. So I certainly didn't have any major accademic things going on and didn't for many years, not as you describe anyway. For me, the books were fiction and read for pleasure. That said, before I got my scanner, when it came to school work, I'd usually go with my family to the library so we could take the relevent books home where Joanie would read the passages that I needed onto tape. Of course, if I didn't have them there to help me, it would've been much different and alot more frustrating. I've never used bookshare but hear they're really cool. What did you mean about "the state of the item"? And what are rFID tags? The only time I've heard of them is in a scarey sinario where everyone would have implants so that information on us could be available to the government at all times. I love Wordperfect! Thanks for reminding me to change my autoexec.bat file so that I could try WordPerfect Editor with ASAP. VocalEyes acts funny with it, even though it has the same commands as regular WordPerfect 5.1. But I want to use this since it can handle txt files. Okay, so what's the difference between using a bar code on clothing and household appliances and using an RFID tag? I mean strictly for the purposes of identification. Not bashing it, as I said, I don't know anything about it so am curious.
Eleni, sad.
Wikipedia RFID for starters. You read all sorts of rag mag material, just the sorta stuff that was pawned off on us blinks before the Internet. You're as bad as an Afghani woman who refused to vote, while all her peers went out and voted under nefarious circumstances.
I was originally talking 1989 scanner, but I won't argue with you because you're like a brick: everything has to match your beliefs / you'd make for a good fundamentalist, at least in your methods.
I see. I didn't know the scanning tech was still that bad in 1989. I'll need to be careful when choosing a package. Right now, I'm trying to decide between the mainstream Omnipage or Textbridge (don't know versions needed though I've been Googling everywhere), or one of the software packages that use the TrueScan technology like An Open Book Unbound, Docuread, Readright or a strange one that I actually have called Recognita. I say strange cause I can't find info on it so don't know what kind of scanner or cards it uses and can't find any information on it except that mine isn't the last version as I'd like. In any case, it's good to hear from those who actually used this software. I have no other sources of information aside from these so-called rag mag materials like AbleData. The disclaimer for that site says "Maintained for the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research of the U.S. Dept. of Education
by ICF Macro under Contract No. ED-04-CO-0018/0007.
The records in AbleData are provided for information purposes only. Neither the U.S. Department of Education nor ICF Macro has examined, reviewed, or tested any product, device, or information contained in AbleData. The Department and ICF Macro make no endorsement, representation, or warranty express or implied as to any product, device, or information set forth in AbleData. The views expressed on this site do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Department of Education, the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research, or ICF Macro." So I'm sure they don't intentionally lie, and since they're not selling anything, they have nothing to gain by doing so. Of course,, many times, they use the descriptions written by the companies of the products which could be deceptive. But without me being able to use the software and hardware in question, I have no way of knowing unless I hear experiences from those like you who have. Another good source, this one much more personal and seemingly more honest for that fact, is Raised Dot Computing newsletters, many issues of which I've read. So that helps a bit.
Sad how even this topic has got off to the past, the past, stthe past ... "older is better" and that especially if it's before one's time.
Can't live in the past if you wanna have a better future specially when it comes to tech. Companies update products for better productivity lol. Specially if u want to land a deacent job keeping up with tech is the best way to go. Where i come from I remember we didn't even have a braille writer very very few people did. We use to have to take notes and such on a slate and styless. When i moved to the states I was amazed of how much tech a blind individual had access and for that I'm greatful to have had the opportunity to take advantage of it. It bothers me a lot when i hear people bitch and complain about a certain tech when outside this country people would die to have half of what we have available for us today. I don't know where I was going with this but yeah.
exactly...
Some common sense, Fighter and Izzy. Nice to see that on here.
I once heard of a fax machine that was hooked up to a braille display. Back then (in the 90's) it seemed so cool...but now it's nothing.
Well, I certainly think it's cool! I actually heard of software that can scan faxes but I suppose that most programs could do that today.
Yes Margorp, I never saw the Braille display and FAX, but I've gotta say getting Faxed MSD reports and having to have a human reader read them in response to enterprise customer complaints is definitely something I'm glad is way in the past. There is so so much more we can do for ourselves now.
Oh yes indeed.
Agreed, only 32 (almost 33), but I do remember the computer struggles in the 80's and 90's, and where we are is so much better. :) Started out on the Apple2E, and while it worked (never did net or anything cept type homework) to day is so much more, and I think the future is going to be even better. :)
I'd like to see the other side of the argument. I've met people who say the old ways were better.
i fully agree and appreciate what poster 1 and most of the rest here said.
as someone origine from 2nd world country, i grow up without the luxury of digital tech, without proper books, without proper training, and things like that. we used to tape for important books such astext books at school. one normal junior high school text book uses about 9 to 11 tapes, and perhaps uses anything between 6 to 9 months to complete the process.
yes, you got it, basicly the tape book become useless by the time they finish the recording of it.
am i missing those days? not in a glance. not in any chance i'll give back my freedom of information to something in the pass. i'm not talking about 1970s, i'm talking about mid 1990s, to early 2000s.
some people have no idea how lucky they are with all the tech that present to them lately, but still, wining about not being accessable, overly digital, bla bla bla.
i urge this group of people go to visit some country where a blind library don't have braille books, left alone talking books, dream about Daisy books. yes they do, those ancient braille book perhaps at least 10 years old, and start wining about digital tech later
I found two sites that may interest you guys.
http://www.inewidea.com/tag/technology
This is not a site for the blind but it mentions some new things that some of you might find exciting, or scary, depending on your views. It also mentions the Brain Port, which is what made me find this in the first place.
http://www.trendhunter.com/slideshow/aids-for-the-blind
This is a collection of interesting things. Most are aids for the blind, some really new and some older (maybe 2006 or so). Many I'm sure you'll recognise but some are truly different and interesting. Once again, the Brain Port is discussed, as well as something called a blind helper, which is supposed to help with mobility.
exactly season I'm sooo glad those days are over. And here we have people that refuse to live in the present and just enjoy the beautiful things tech could now do for us.
I didn't see a braille writer till the age of 16 if that tells you anything lol. I had to take notes in school just on a slate and stylesss.
to above poster:
there're simply people out there that can't be thankful for what they have at this very moment, when they are able to enjoy it wihtout very much of serious conciquences. i feel ashame for tthese people.
there are so many people out there, who haven't have the chance to see a telephone, left alone a computer of any sort.
to tifanitza: i'm amaze at the level of your research. why the first link didn't send the shocking feelings as you said it would, and the second resources, just a bunch of booshit. i urge you, study some useful on how to do a proper research, and get back to us later with a better type of information.
Apparently, you missed the part about the computers that connect to the brain and read thoughts. If not, then you fail to see how this can be dangerous in someone else's hands. I graduated college with a 4.0 gpa (grade point average/all a's) and on the dean's list. I believe I know how to do research. You, on the other hand, could use a dictionary and some more ESL classes, which I'm also certified to teach. I was unaware that this was a writing assignment. The second link isn't something that I'd normally include in a list of resources on blindness, and it had several unrelated things in it. However, it also had a few interesting finds, which is why I included it.
I was never in the developing world like some of you all, and in the 1990s you all had it worse than those of us in the 1970s and (at least us in the lower classes) the 1980s. But note how no matter how some of us may take one and only one board to postulate on where we've been plus the future, others who are dedicated to past on many boards have to be rather a spoil sport on the game, saving yor last articles.
Your love affair with the past is just that, a love affair and a belief system. Ours who were there and are now here is no belief, it's just commentary on older "systems" (using that term loosely) and new / efficient systems. I can work out a formula using whatever tools I want, my code editor or whatever even Notepad, and I can erase dumbass mistakes which are many at times / aided by a few stiff ones, but I don't have to roll in paper into a Brailler or turn the paper over and look at the code with a slate and stylus.
In short I get more done in less time. The simple ability to cleanly erase from a writing surface and redo it was totally foreign to us before. And you who love the past so much have never clicked the damn carriage to try and get your superscripts / subscripts right.
Oh and when I write documents now, I can embed charts / tables / outlines, all the design mechanisms that help illustrate relationships between parts.
Your old DOS systems, which for us were great in 1993, could not do this. No, I had to go into novel's .config file, look up the line I needed, exit that, go into Word Perfect or something just to go and look in a manual or perhaps to be working on a white paper and insert that line. Not with copy and paste, and I was there for Deskview and the like. It don't work as good at all as Windows / the Mac / Linux. Multitasking is crucial, and I mean the real deal not just real-mode process-sharing / shell manipulation which is the best we could hope for at one time.
The migration from hardened pointed sticks to flint was great, but we don't use flint anymore. There are some who've revived the art of flint knapping, but they aren't writing rags about us throwing out stainless steel.
I never said that I hate all modern technology. I certainly wouldn't go back to the days of paper and the slate and stylus either and am looking forward to getting that talking bar code scanner so that I don't need to wait for people to read my groceries to me so that I can label them. I merely on't like the way people have overcomplicated things today in part to make them prettier and in part to make them insanely easy for the lazy. I have no problems with menus or hotkeys as opposed to a commandline. It's when they make it graphical and cluttered instead of clean that it gets on my nerves. I'm hoping that the newer versions of DOS don't have the problems that you've mentioned with regard to multitasking because to be able to do that truly is a blessing. I'm still not sure about cut and paste, so need to see if that's been made available, but I've heard that there is multitasking in Enhanced DR-DOS and that it existed in the official DR-DOS for quite some time. So they've had awhile to work on it. Now whether that will play nicely with a screen reader is another story. Thanks for the warning on Desqview.
Basically if it's real DOS of any sort be it the original QDOS, (Quick and dirty operating system, an experiment), the commandeered version redone by either Microsoft or IBM, then you will never multitask and copy and paste like you can on Linux or Windows / Mac. You have no swap space into which a clipboard can be placed, which contains either file pointer data, text, text with formatting, or anything else. And DOS being DOS runs without a lot of modern libraries, which you for some strange reason called 'codependent' (computer in therapy?). Said libraries are what are used for multiple applications to communicate and understand each other regarding file formats, who's using what memory space, ports, devices, and all sorts of things.
In the beloved Dos days, your printer even had to be specifically supported by your piece of software: Word Perfect had one driver, Lotus 123 had another, for the same printer. That was not the software, that was, and is, the architecture. Unless it simply isn't DOS anymore.
If your Dr. Dos has evolved to take advantage of modern GUI concepts without a GUI or what you call cluttered, it won't be the same. And that willl mean lots and lots of commands.
Oh and FWIW, most people aren't lazy, they're just working instead of playing with the computer. They use GUIs because they have to do a million tasks. My wife on writing her book used Revisions and collaboration features in Word with her editing coach - and doesn't know enough about computing to know that's what she used. In fact she successfully used them and turned about to tell a friend she had never heard of Collaboration and Revisions in Word. So I told her what she had been doing , and she recognized it. Now, was she lazy? God no! I couldn't write a book, but she was. Maybe having a geek for a husband I do all the backups, got her Office set up and the like, but had she been forced to mess with computing all over the place could she have worked together with the editor coach and the like?
What you seem to call lazy is a very gross misunderstanding of the average user population: for them the computer is just a means to an end. And frankly, speaking as one that writes software for a living, all I can say is we owe them one. Were it not for average users, we'd be up shit creek trying to serve the sliver of population who wanted to tweak and compute, and pay next to nothing to do it, a very small population indeed. Back to the 1980s anyone?
I wish you'd quit calling interfaces codependent but more to the point, that you'd quit calling basic users lazy. Authors aren't lazy, doctors aren't lazy, social service people aren't lazy when they want us to write backup systems they can run with the push of a button. Oh, and 911 operators aren't lazy when they need new and improved GUI systems to facilitate faster response times. You're outa your gourd when you talk like that.
roboz, remember those days where all the kid like us using manual type writer? once you type wrong a letter, left alone a sentence, you gotta change the paper, and type it from the very top again. i remember i once spend hours just to type a simple 1 page letter. and, if you not careful enough, the ribbun will get to your hand all over when you changing the paper and stuff.
also, what a noice they made.
i miss those old days though, i'm not saying in the 1960/1980, i'm saying late 1990s, early 2000s. well, no, i don't miss those days, i prefer now and future.
to tifanitza: yes, i saw that, but it is not something unusual, people have been talking for that for quite some time now, and that would happen one day, maybe not in our generation, it would happen.
also to tifanitza: in one hand, you want things to be accessable, in another you refuse to use things that is accessable, how that suit your value?
To robozork: Oh, it's definitely still DOS, but in all honesty, it's now possible to make it so graphical that most people wouldn't even know it was DOS. I'm sure that these programs accessible for us, but it can definitely be done for the sighted. There's even a program that will let you create a batch file with diologue boxes, menus, buttons, input fields and check boxes like in Windows. (on page below)
http://www.opus.co.tt/dave/indexall.htm
This is a page of programs, some newer than others, many of which take advantage of modern things like usb storage devices and printers, firewire, formats like mp3, rtf, jpg, html, pdf, fat32 and ntsc formatted hard disks etc., media like cdr, cdrw and dvd, modern hardware such as digital cameras. There are also compilers for various older and newer programming languages there as well as several gui shells and other programs which make heavy use of the graphical user interface.
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html
Here's another huge page with even more links for all sorts of programs, including several alternate versions of DOS..
Now, to get back to the point, why should there be tons and tons of commands without a gui? Surely, batch files and the like can be used for many things. Take starting a program. I could type "cd: wp51" to get into the Word Perfect directory and then type in wp or I could simply have it set up so that all I'd need to do would be to type "wp" and enter at the c prompt and it would start. In Windows, even the quickest approach would require me to go to the start menu, hit r for run and then type out wp.exe in order to bring up the program. My complaint isn't with people like doctors, 911 operators or anyone else who deals with life-threatening situations. Of course, they need things done as quickly as possible. I've actually heard that many in industry and in the medical profession still use DOS due to it's speed. Anyway, a writer, a home user, a secritary etc. doesn't usually have to worry about people dying because they took a few extra seconds to type something out on the keyboard instead of clicking on the pretty pictures. It seems as if most people have a phobia of the keyboard, as if it will bite them if they touch it, and if something goes wrong with their mouse, they freak out as if the world was coming to an end, all because they don't know shortcuts. I actually know of one person who's sighted who uses only the keyboard and she finishes things faster than everyone else in her office. Since you don't like the term codependent, what about interconnected? Surely, these things are connected via libraries etc. To season: I have two manual typewriters, one from 1908 and one from 1964 or so. Both are in good condition and work fine. But I too prefer the ease of typing on a computer and would hate to use a typewriter, even my electric 70's one, for serious work for the reasons that you've described. It's just as bad as braille, only worse, because I wouldn't be able to see the mistakes I made nor would I be able to easily correct them. I'm using Windows XP, so it's not that I refuse to use modern tech. But I draw the line at touch screens and things with a billion functions in them.
Writers have a phobia of keyboards? Hmm, how do they write then?
It's not just 'pretty pictures' even if they think it is. Even if they think it's just looks, the GUI really serves to create pathways and associations, to draw the attention towards what they're doing but I won't talk in circles ... what I started off with as a positive thing you've managed to drag down like a soaring bird with a lead weight on its foot.
I've tried, several times, in this thread, to post positives on modern tech, even including two sites (all-be-it not the best ones and not the ones in post 31) with some interesting new things in them. I've brought up gps systems, the brain port and bar code scanners and explained how I prefer the computer over older tech. I'm trying to keep this current but everyone is writing about the past and my ideas on it, in a negative light, which, while I could understand it, has made us go offtopic. No matter what the purpose of the gui is, there's no denying that software has gotten more complicated and much of it has become inaccessible due to graphics and the like. Even certain programs that we used to be able to use now are inaccessible, and I'm talking Windows stuff here. But since so many do work for us, it's clear that, even within a gui system, things can be designed cleanly and in a manner that makes sense. It's just that many programmers are no longer doing this. Again, I don't see why regular pull-down menus and hotkeys are an issue for so many people.
It's not that complicated though. You just need to spend time. Like everything, there is a learning curve.
I'm not picking on you like others are (ehem) but I am starting to wonder if this beeing stuck in the past is healthy.
It's not stuck in the past if you're using an updated system and newer software, which I intend on doing. Granted, there will be some old standbys, and if they work, then I have no reason to change them. But there will also be some newer programs to try, which may or may not work, as well as my own adventures in programming to create accessible versions of things which are either inaccessible or which existed in accessible forms but which can no longer be found.
Tifanitza: no one is picking at you, is all come to consumer choice. if a cow refuse to drink water, no matter how hard you try, it wont obey you. same goes for you. what we saying is, we need to look forward, for the tech to get more assessable instead of making old tech to be assessable. as a blind community, our current tech already half a step behind everyone else. while sighted people can make a few click, click and drag, we need to go the long way, by pressing few different steps to get the same result. the product is already there, is just the matter to making it to be more accessable, goes for both Macs and Windows, and so with lynux, why, we must make things hard, reprogram everything to dr. dos, or whatever your OS called, and start from praticlely 0 again?
yes, it may suit you fine with what you doing, but will a dos machine powerful enough to handle the day-to-day demand as to networking, webhosting, or multitasking such as downloading files, reading book, chatting online, browsing the internet, and converting vedio to mp3 at the very same time using the very same machine?
of course, everyone can sit down on their rocking chair, talking about good old past time, during the 50s, the 70s, even the 90s, but these time is well gone, and to be honest, most of us here, not particularly wanting to relive those period again.
now, i can carry a relatively < than 3lbs netbook to uni, work on it for about 9hours/10hours, and going online at the same time, i don't miss those days where i need to carry a brailler that weigh about 10lbs or more, and holding a stag of braille paper, making my entrence to the classroom, and anoying everyone off with the noise that i made from the brailler.
when now, you can relatively reading a daisy book whenever you are, in your toilet, kitchen, bed, buses, and so on, you can't simply do that with a tape player without going thru the hassle.
Networking, downloading files, reading books and browsing the net aren't problems. Chatting, from what I could gather, is limited to AOL, and I'm not sure how well the program I found would work with a screen reader, since it only uses half of the screen. I'm not sure about converting video to mp3 or web hosting, but I'm pretty sure the latter can be done. Theoretically, the things that can be done should be able to work together, so long as you have enough ram. If the programs are memory hogs, this could be a problem. I've heard that there's a way to make DOS see over 64mb of ram, but for most things, this wouldn't be necessary. Your idea might be an exception. There were certainly laptops and electronic notetakers for the blind in the 90's and most of the people who were in school, at least in the United States, at that time had something like that paid for by their blind group, such as the Comission for the Blind. This is at least true for anyone whom I've ever spoken with who went to school then. So carrying braillewriters and braillepaper was mostly unnecessary. Of course, things were different in your country, but the tech did exist an was used in other parts of the world.
You have posts and post and posts dedicated to your old technology and the supposed updates which you have yet to make work, and when one, count 'em one post comes along to bring up improvements that Season and I know about, but you obviously don't, you have to come along and bring back all your past stuff, that's what we all used to would have called a spoil sport. Isn't it equally spoiling then, if a gay couple describes their progress, how much they have now vs. what they had, and someone has to come along and say that gays can be changed in that post? They have all their posts where they talked about it. That to me is where the problem is. Of course you 'have the right' and maybe the term spoilsport has no meaning anymore, but that's what we're getting at. Keep your DOS, talk all you want about graphical users being lazy (the massive majority of users?) and still piddle around with trying to set it up, keep coming back to those of us who don't know because we haven't worked on anything DOS in 15 years, keep saying how everyone has updated DOS without you actually running it, keep shoving the DOS religion down our throats. Because that's what it is: The pages you sent me were no white papers, they were the web's equivalent of a leaflet. That's your right, but when one single post comes along as this one did, to try and put a little perspective, talk about where we were, where we are, and where we're going, you feel the need to come along and spoil it with DOS all over again.
One topic is not picking, when you can have as many topics about finding wireless drivers, what's 'accessible' and what isn't. And, for the zillionth time, 'Accessible' wasn't even thought of back then, it worked only because of the elbow-grease of the reader manufacturers. It wasn't even a word then, not like it is now. Section 508 and 504 compliance came along when you were a teenager if I remember right. Nothing worked out of the box, and all the troubles you're having were commonplace for us then. So have them if you must, but be sport about it, and let the rest of us also have our relish in what's coming.
Apparently, you missed the stuff that I wrote on modern tech here. If you and others don't want to talk about the past, which I can understand, why continue this conversation instead of starting in a new direction about something modern? For my part, I'm wondering if, aside from price, there's a huge difference between the I.D. Mate Omni and the I.D. Mate Summit. I'm thinking of getting one to make my life easier so that I don't have to keep labeling all of my groceries and other items. I heard the Omni's speech and was very surprised by the low quality of the synth. But considering what it does and how much freedom it offers, that wasn't a big deal. Also, has anyone tried the Kapten? If so, how accessible is it? It sounds like a really neat gps.
tifamitza: morden stuff? by using 56/64KBPS internet call morden? when people talking about penfriend you talking about I.D. Mate Omni call morden? you definitely have a weird defination on what "morden" mean then. oh dear, all of us here, the majority of us, needing to go back to our little cave and be the cavemen then.
bravo Roboz on your post. can't agree with you more
First of all, my username is Tiffanitsa and second of all, the word is modern. I was clearly not referring to 56k modems but to my posts where I discuss and ask about rfid tags, the Brain Port, computers that connect to the brain to read thoughts, bar code scanners, gps, modern formats and hardware (in post 31) etc. Granted, I did discuss alot of older things, and for that I sincerely do apologise. But I'm not an ignoramus and do understand the difference between modern and older technology. Things change so quickly that even my Muvo T100, a wonderful screenless mp3 player with 4gb capacity, is probably considered old now. But it's certainly modern enough to hook up to a usb 2..0 port, can fit in my pocket and holds way more information than I could reasonably carry on tape. So I use and enjoy it. Why should I go and buy a newer player when this one works just fine? If anything, I'd buy another of these to have as a backup or to hold more music. En-Vision America, the site that sells the new I.D. Mate Summit is also still selling the I.D. Mate Omni, something hardly ever seen with truly older technology. I don't exactly have $1299.00 to spend on a bar code reader when I could get a slightly older but still portable and functional one in like-new condition for $699.00. I merely wanted to know if the Summit's worth all the extra money.
Okay, Tiff and robo both have verry good points. I'll start with Tiffanitsa:
I find that your heart is certainly in the rite place. I think taking something old and making it new by using updated code is a great thing. It is good to recycle. We have all toyed around with that idea at one time or another.
Robo:
Yes, we cannot look back now, We have gui (graphical user interface for those who may not know) and turning back the clock is never good. We have learned from history and now we must build on it. It is like the forefathers of a coutry, or the founders of a town.